tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post3051486403971862798..comments2023-08-03T08:08:27.776-07:00Comments on Karen's Poetry Spot: Recessional by Rudyard KiplingKaren Ahlstromhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08494601453714239376noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post-66123706837870420792007-09-17T10:06:00.000-07:002007-09-17T10:06:00.000-07:00Well... if I can believe it (that he was being iro...Well... if I can believe it (that he was being ironic) about anyone from that century, I could believe it about Kipling. He was so far ahead of his time. His science fiction is written from the point of view of characters within a future world who take that world for granted, without chunks of exposition for the reader. It would be at least a generation before anyone else tried doing that in SF, and not as skillfully. <BR/>So, in your opinion, is "White Man's Burden" also saying the opposite of what it means? <BR/> <BR/>DouglasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post-73169712494357607612007-09-17T10:05:00.000-07:002007-09-17T10:05:00.000-07:00That's something Lesli mentioned to me. It's less ...That's something Lesli mentioned to me. It's less important what we<BR/>can say about people from the past than trying to figure out what<BR/>things are taken for granted today that will be seen as appalling in<BR/>the future. (What?! People were dying of malaria while you were still alive? Why didn't you do something about it? Okay, they were far away, but you knew about it didn't you? This was after the invention of the telephone, right?)<BR/>DouglasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post-67754543486114274082007-09-17T10:04:00.001-07:002007-09-17T10:04:00.001-07:00I find the same concerns in reading Church history...I find the same concerns in reading Church history and journals. PPPratt can be very romantic in one sentence and a real chauvinist in the next : yet we know he absolutely adored Thankful, "the beloved wife of his youth." I would imagine that almost all the famous people we admire in history had some jingoist, racist, or imperialistic ideas or attitudes: maybe one thing we love about them is that they are on a path to revealed truth ahead of others of their day. Let us hope the same could be said about us.<BR/>MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post-80867412456612334852007-09-17T10:04:00.000-07:002007-09-17T10:04:00.000-07:00I dunno, when I read it, I notice that he says, "w...I dunno, when I read it, I notice that he says, "without the law" immediately after "lesser breeds." To me, this implies that with the law (knowledge of God), they wouldn't be lesser anymore. It sounds to me like he's differentiating between them and the "Gentiles" who in this context must be people who have heard the general ideas of the gospel but ignore or deny God's hand in events, boasting in their own strength (whereas the lesser breeds are those "heathens" who haven't even heard of the concepts, and so can't even pay them lip-service) . <BR/> <BR/>I also believe that he often used racist terms in their common forms for ironic effect (again, see Gunga-Din). Here, I think he's saying something like, "Yeah, we call all those people we conquered 'lesser breeds' because they weren't fortunate enough to be raised Christian, but then we (who should know better) boast about how great we are, and we frankly need to be forgiven for the attitudes in our heathen hearts."<BR/> <BR/>I will readily agree that he was far from politically correct in many (if not most) of his works that mention other races. I'll even agree that he thought that certain groups of men were more likely to be worthwhile than others (he liked the common soldiers better than the aristocratic officers for example), but I personally can't believe that he honestly thought one race of men superior to another.Karen Ahlstromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08494601453714239376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8145150938922509338.post-51801959478767647212007-09-17T10:03:00.000-07:002007-09-17T10:03:00.000-07:00I really like the majesty this poem has. It fits ...I really like the majesty this poem has. It fits in a genre with the Battle Hymn and God Speed the Right. But it's hard to defend Kipling from charges of racism-- "lesser breeds" (from this poem) simply means he believes one race of human is superior to another. (I don't see any other possible interpretation. ) I find myself continually surprised by this as I read history and literature-- that someone can be brilliantly insightful in many areas, and yet believe something almost universally accepted as morally wrong today. To some extent this makes me want to hold my own moral judgements in check; but about something like slavery I can't just say, "well, to each his own." <BR/> <BR/>DouglasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com